I mean, the honest answer is not much. There he is. Now we're getting somewhere. Interesting. What about Jesus as a Jew? So the Eastern Aegean. All he says is that these women and Marcus are adding drugs seven times in a row into whatever potion this is they're mixing up. So what do we know about those rituals? OK, Brian, I invite you to join us now. And in his book [? And I think it's very important to be very honest with the reader and the audience about what we know and what we don't. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . And not least because if I were to do it, I'd like to do so in a deeply sacred ritual. Listen to #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More, an episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, easily on Podbay - the best podcast player on the web. Brought to you by Wealthfront high-yield savings account, Peloton Row premium rower for an efficient workout, and You Need A Budget cult-favorite money management app.. Rick Rubin is a nine-time GRAMMY-winning producer, one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people in the world, and the most successful producer in any genre, according to Rolling Stone. CHARLES STANG: OK. Brought to you by And I wonder and I question how we can keep that and retain that for today. The pagan continuity hypothesis at the heart of this book made sense to me. I've no doubt that Brian has unearthed and collected a remarkable body of evidence, but evidence of what, exactly? But let me say at the outset that it is remarkably learned, full of great historical and philological detail. But we at least have, again, the indicia of evidence that something was happening there. And that kind of invisible religion with no name, although brutally suppressed, managed to survive in Europe for many centuries and could potentially be revived today. But it was not far from a well-known colony in [INAUDIBLE] that was founded by Phocians. Examine the pros and cons of the continuity theory of aging, specifically in terms of how it neglects to consider social institutions or chronically ill adults. So frankly, what happens during the Neolithic, we don't know, at least from a scientific vantage. They did not. General Stanley McChrystal Mastering Risk: A User's Guide | Brought to you by Kettle & Fire high quality, tasty, and conveniently packaged bone broths; Eight Sleep. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and improving And so I don't think that psychedelics are coming to replace the Sunday Eucharist. First, I will provide definitions for the terms "pagan", "Christian", And I think we're getting there. There aren't any churches or basilicas, right, in the first three centuries, in this era we're calling paleo-Christianity. Books about pagan continuity hypothesis? She joins me for most events and meetings. But the next event in this series will happen sooner than that. Get personalized recommendations, and learn where to watch across hundreds of streaming providers. His aim when he set out on this journey 12 years ago was to assess the validity of a rather old, but largely discredited hypothesis, namely, that some of the religions of the ancient Mediterranean, perhaps including Christianity, used a psychedelic sacrament to induce mystical experiences at the border of life and death, and that these psychedelic rituals were just the tip of the iceberg, signs of an even more ancient and pervasive religious practice going back many thousands of years. And Brian, once again, thank you so much. The continuity between pagan and Christian cult nearby the archaeological area of Naquane in Capo di Ponte. Including, all the way back to Gobekli Tepe, which is why I mentioned that when we first started chatting. I wonder if you're familiar with Wouter Hanegraaff at the University of Amsterdam. And so for me, this was a hunt through the catacombs and archives and libraries, doing my sweet-talking, and trying to figure out what was behind some of those locked doors. And this is what I present to the world. The kind of mysticism I've always been attracted to, like the rule of Saint Benedict and the Trappist monks and the Cistercian monks. And so if there is a place for psychedelics, I would think it would be in one of those sacred containers within monastic life, or pilgrims who visit one of these monastic centers, for example. "The Jews" are not after Ye. What's significant about these features for our piecing together the ancient religion with no name? Well, let's get into it then. CHARLES STANG: You know, Valentinus was almost elected bishop of Rome. CHARLES STANG: We've really read Jesus through the lens of his Greek inheritors. And I want to say that this question that we've been exploring the last half hour about what all this means for the present will be very much the topic of our next event on February 22, which is taking up the question of psychedelic chaplaincy. 8th century BC from the Tel Arad shrine. So the mysteries of Dionysus are a bit more of a free-for-all than the mysteries of Eleusis. The long and short of it is, in 1978 there was no hard scientific data to prove this one way or the other. I also sense another narrative in your book, and one you've flagged for us, maybe about 10 minutes ago, when you said that the book is a proof of concept. Like in Israel. Whether there's a psychedelic tradition-- I mean, there are some suggestive paintings. What, if any, was the relationship between this Greek sanctuary-- a very Greek sanctuary, by the way-- in Catalonia, to the mysteries of Eleusis? What Brian labels the religion with no name. We have some inscriptions. And how do we-- when the pharmaceutical industry and when these retreat centers begin to open and begin to proliferate, how do we make this sacred? I want to thank you for putting up with me and my questions. I'll invite him to think about the future of religion in light of all this. And another: in defending the pagan continuity hypothesis, Muraresku presumes a somewhat non-Jewish, pagan-like Jesus, while ignoring the growing body of psychedelic literature, including works by . This event is entitled, Psychedelics, The Ancient Religion With No Name? But so as not to babble on, I'll just say that it's possible that the world's first temple, which is what Gobekli Tepe is referred to as sometimes, it's possible the world's first temple was also the world's first bar. CHARLES STANG: Right. Despite its popular appeal as a New York Times Bestseller, TIK fails to make a compelling case for its grand theory of the "pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist" due to recurring overreach and historical distortion, failure to consider relevant research on shamanism and Christianity, and presentation of speculation as fact These were Greek-- I've seen them referred to as Greek Vikings by Peter Kingsley, Vikings who came from Ionia. So if we can test Eucharistic vessels, I wouldn't be surprised at all that we find one. Copyright 2023 The President and Fellows of Harvard College, The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name. A combination of psychoactive plants, including opium, cannabis, and nightshade, along with the remains of reptiles and amphibians all steeped in wine, like a real witch's brew, uncovered in this house outside of Pompeii. And that's not how it works today, and I don't think that's how it works in antiquity. And I hear-- I sense that narrative in your book. And inside that beer was all kinds of vegetable matter, like wheat, oats, and sedge and lily and flax and various legumes. That they were what you call extreme beverages. CHARLES STANG: OK. Now let's move into the Greek mystery. let's take up your invitation and move from Dionysus to early Christianity. 8 "The winds, the sea . difficult to arrive at any conclusive hypothesis. What does ergotized beer in Catalonia have anything to do with the Greek mysteries at Eleusis? They're mixing potions. The pagan continuity hypothesis theorizes that when Christianity arrived in Greece around AD 49, it didn't suddenly replace the existing religion. That seems very believable, but there's nothing to suggest that the pharmacy or drug farm was serving Christians, or even that the potions produced were for ritual use. The divine personage in whom this cult centered was the Magna Mater Deum who was conceived as the source of all life as well as the personification of all the powers of nature.\[Footnote:] Willoughby, Pagan Regeneration, p. 114.\ 7 She was the "Great Mother" not only "of all the gods," but of all men" as well. And what you're referring to is-- and how I begin the book is this beautiful Greek phrase, [SPEAKING GREEK]. The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More (#646) - The Blog of Author Tim Ferriss 3 Annual "Best of" Apple Podcasts 900+ Million episodes downloaded I would expect we'd have ample evidence. Certainly these early churchmen used whatever they could against the forms of Christian practice they disapproved of, especially those they categorized as Gnostic. But I want to ask you to reflect on the broader narrative that you're painting, because I've heard you speak in two ways about the significance of this work. But the point being, if the Dionysian wine was psychedelic-- which I know is a big if-- I think the more important thing to show here in this pagan continuity hypothesis is that it's at least plausible that the earliest Christians would have at the very least read the Gospel of John and interpreted that paleo-Christian Eucharistic wine, in some communities, as a kind of Dionysian wine. They were relevant to me in going down this rabbit hole. OK-- maybe one of those ancient beers. And so I don't know what a really authentic, a really historic-looking ritual that is equal parts sacred, but also, again, medically sound, scientifically rigorous, would look like. So in the mountains and forests from Greece to Rome, including the Holy Land and Galilee. I see something that's happening to people. There's a moment in the book where you are excited about some hard evidence. I mean, I asked lots of big questions in the book, and I fully acknowledge that. I try to be careful to always land on a lawyer's feet and be very honest with you and everybody else about where this goes from here. So, I mean, my biggest question behind all of this is, as a good Catholic boy, is the Eucharist. So it wasn't just a random place to find one of these spiked wines. After the first few chapters the author bogs down flogging the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis and exulting over his discovery of small scraps of evidence he found in a decade of research. And nor do I think that you can characterize southern Italy as ground zero for the spirit of Greek mysticism, or however you put it. You know, it's an atheist using theological language to describe what happened to her. And I just happened to fall into that at the age of 14 thanks to the Jesuits, and just never left it behind. And so I do see an avenue, like I kind of obliquely mentioned, but I do think there's an avenue within organized religion and for people who dedicate their lives as religious professionals to ministry to perhaps take a look at this in places where it might work. I'm not sure where it falls. We know from the literature hundreds of years beforehand that in Elis, for example, in the Western Peloponnese, on the same Epiphany-type timeline, January 5, January 6, the priests would walk into the temple of Dionysus, leave three basins of water, the next morning they're miraculously transformed into wine. Psychedelics Today: Mark Plotkin - Bio-Cultural Conservation of the Amazon. In fact, he found beer, wine, and mead all mixed together in a couple of different places. I have a deep interest in mysticism, and I've had mystical experiences, which I don't think are very relevant. But what I see are potential and possibilities and things worthy of discussions like this. What does God mean? So Pompeii and its environs at the time were called [SPEAKING GREEK], which means great Greece. Now, Mithras is another one of these mystery religions. We're going to get there very soon. I mean, lots of great questions worthy of further investigation. Brian is the author of a remarkable new book that has garnered a lot of attention and has sold a great many copies. If they've been doing this, as you suggest, for 2,000 years, nearly, what makes you think that a few ancient historians are going to turn that aircraft carrier around? Liked by Samuel Zuschlag. That event is already up on our website and open for registration. And what does this earliest history tell us about the earliest evidence for an ancient psychedelic religion? The same Rome that circumstantially shows up, and south of Rome, where Constantine would build his basilicas in Naples and Capua later on. Now, what's curious about this is we usually have-- Egypt plays a rather outsized role in our sense of early Christianity because-- and other adjacent or contemporary religious and philosophical movements, because everything in Egypt is preserved better than anywhere else in the Mediterranean. And I'm trying to reconcile that. These sources suggest a much greater degree of continuity with pre-Christian values and practice than the writings of more . Love potions, love charms, they're very common in the ancient. CHARLES STANG: Brian, I wonder if you could end by reflecting on the meaning of dying before you die. He's joining us from Uruguay, where he has wisely chosen to spend his pandemic isolation. We still have almost 700 with us. And it was the Jesuits who encouraged me to always, always ask questions and never take anything at face value. In May of last year, researchers published what they believe is the first archaeochemical data for the use of psychoactive drugs in some form of early Judaism. It draws attention to this material. There's no mistake in her mind that it was Greek. And I'm happy to see we have over 800 people present for this conversation. I took this to Greg [? Or maybe in palliative care. A rebirth into a new conception of the self, the self's relationship to things that are hard to define, like God. And I don't know what that looks like. I mean, that's obviously the big question, and what that means for the future of medicine and religion and society at large. And I want to say to those who are still assembled here that I'm terribly sorry that we can't get to all your questions. The book proposes a history of religious ritualistic psychedelic use at least as old as the ancient Greek mystery religions, especially those starting in Eleusis and dating to roughly 2,000 BC. And I don't know if it's a genuine mystical experience or mystical mimetic or some kind of psychological breakthrough. For those who didn't have the time or the money or the temerity to travel all the way to Eleusis from Spain, here's your off-site campus, right? In the afterword, you champion the fact that we stand on the cusp of a new era of psychedelics precisely because they can be synthesized and administered safely in pill form, back to The Economist article "The God Pill". And as a lawyer, I know what is probative and what's circumstantial evidence, and I just-- I don't see it there. It's not the case in the second century. We look forward to hosting Chacruna's founder and executive director, Bia Labate, for a lecture on Monday, March 8. So, you know, I specifically wanted to avoid heavily relying on the 52 books of the [INAUDIBLE] corpus or heavily relying too much on the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and the evidence that's come from Egypt. No one lived there. Hard archaeobotanical, archaeochemical data, I haven't seen it. Because very briefly, I think Brian and others have made a very strong case that these things-- this was a biotechnology that was available in the ancient world. What about all these early Christians themselves as essentially Jews? But you go further still, suggesting that Jesus himself at the Last Supper might have administered psychedelic sacrament, that the original Eucharist was psychedelic. A profound knowledge of visionary plants, herbs, and fungi passed from one generation to the next, ever since the Stone Age? He draws on the theory of "pagan continuity," which holds that early Christianity adopted . But I'm pressing you because that's my job. That is my dog Xena. So that's something else to look into. This 'pagan continuity hypothesis' with a psychedelic twist is now backed up by biochemistry and agrochemistry and tons of historical research, exposing our forgotten history. So whatever was happening there was important. Brendon Benz presents an alternative hypothesis to recent scholarship which has hypothesized that Israel consisted of geographical, economic . Several theories address the issue of the origin of the Romanians.The Romanian language descends from the Vulgar Latin dialects spoken in the Roman provinces north of the "Jireek Line" (a proposed notional line separating the predominantly Latin-speaking territories from the Greek-speaking lands in Southeastern Europe) in Late Antiquity.The theory of Daco-Roman continuity argues that the . What was the wine in the early Eucharist? Is this only Marcus? So I spent 12 years looking for that data, eventually found it, of all places, in Catalonia in Spain in this 635-page monograph that was published in 2002 and for one reason or another-- probably because it was written in Catalan-- was not widely reported to the academic community and went largely ignored. The question is, what will happen in the future. A rebirth into what? If we're being honest with ourselves, when you've drunk-- and I've drunk that wine-- I didn't necessarily feel that I'd become one with Jesus. And you're right. 25:15 Dionysus and the "pagan continuity hypothesis" 30:54 Gnosticism and Early Christianity . Rather, Christian beliefs were gradually incorporated into the pagan customs that already existed there. [texts-excerpt] penalty for cutting mangroves in floridaFREE EstimateFREE Estimate I mean, so Walter Burkert was part of the reason that kept me going on. Read more 37 people found this helpful Helpful Report abuse Tfsiebs So much research! So perhaps there's even more evidence. I'm currently reading The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku and find this 2nd/3rd/4th century AD time period very interesting, particularly with regards to the adoptions of pagan rituals and practices by early Christianity. Maybe for those facing the end of life. So can you reflect for us where you really are and how you chose to write this book? I mean, in the absence of the actual data, that's my biggest question. Throughout his five books he talks about wine being mixed with all kinds of stuff, like frankincense and myrrh, relatively innocuous stuff, but also less innocuous things like henbane and mandrake, these solanaceous plants which he specifically says is fatal. She found the remains of dog sacrifice, which is super interesting. To assess this hypothesis and, perhaps, to push it further, has required years of dogged and, at times, discouraging works in archives and archaeology. And we know the mysteries were there. Brian has been very busy taking his new book on the road, of course, all online, and we're very grateful to him for taking the time to join us this evening. And the second act, the same, but for what you call paleo-Christianity, the evidence for your suspicion that the Eucharist was originally a psychedelic sacrament. I was satisfied with I give Brian Muraresku an "A" for enthusiasm, but I gave his book 2 stars. And what do you believe happens to you when you do that? I was not going to put a book out there that was sensationalist. So if you don't think that you are literally consuming divine blood, what is the point of religion? So psychedelics or not, I think it's the cultivation of that experience, which is the actual key. Not because they just found that altar. And so the big hunt for me was trying to find some of those psychedelic bits. CHARLES STANG: All right. Brian's thesis, that of the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, was explored by Alexander Hislop in his "The Two Babylons", 1853, as a Protestant treatise in the spirit of Martin Luther as Alexander too interjects the Elusinian Mysteries. OK, now, Brian, you've probably dealt with questions like this. This is going to be a question that's back to the ancient world. Dogs, indicative of the Greek goddess Hecate, who, amongst other things was known as the [GREEK], the dog eater. I don't think we have found it. You may have already noticed one such question-- not too hard. I would love to see these licensed, regulated, retreat centers be done in a way that is medically sound and scientifically rigorous. The Immortality Key has its shortcomings. So listening right now, there's at least one orthodox priest, there's at least one Catholic priest, an Episcopalian, an Anglican, and several others with whom I've been talking in recent months. CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF WORLD RELIGIONS, Harvard Divinity School42 Francis Avenue, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02138 617.495.4495, my.hds |Harvard Divinity School |Harvard University |Privacy |Accessibility |Digital Accessibility | Trademark Notice |Reporting Copyright Infringements. He was wronged by individuals, allegedly. Not just in Italy, but as kind of the headquarters for the Mediterranean. And so with a revised ancient history, in place Brian tacks back to the title of our series, Psychedelics and the Future of Religion. And what about the alleged democratization with which you credit the mysteries of Dionysus, or the role of women in that movement? It's only in John that Jesus is described as being born in the lap of the Father, the [SPEAKING GREEK] in 1:18, very similar to the way that Dionysus sprung miraculously from the thigh of Zeus, and on and on and on-- which I'm not going to bore you and the audience. So whatever these [SPEAKING GREEK] libations incense were, the church fathers don't get into great detail about what may have been spiking them. I might forward the proposition that I don't think the early church fathers were the best botanists. But in Pompeii, for example, there's the villa of the mysteries, one of these really breathtaking finds that also survived the ravage of Mount Vesuvius. And when I read psychedelic literature or I read the literature on near-death experiences, I see experiences similar to what I experienced as a young boy. And by the way, I'm not here trying to protect Christianity from the evidence of psychedelic use. I think it's important you have made a distinction between what was Jesus doing at the Last Supper, as if we could ever find out. But I do want to push back a little bit on the elevation of this particular real estate in southern Italy. But what I hear from people, including atheists, like Dina Bazer, who participated in these Hopkins NYU trials is that she felt like on her one and only dose of psilocybin that she was bathed in God's love. BRIAN MURARESKU: Right. According to Muraresku, this work, BOOK REVIEW which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? CHARLES STANG: OK, great. Nage ?] CHARLES STANG: All right. So. And my favorite line of the book is, "The lawyer in me won't sleep until that one chalice, that one container, that one vessel comes to light in an unquestionable Christian context.". So there's lots of interesting details here that filter through. Newsweek calls him 'the world's best human guinea pig,' and The New York Times calls him 'a cross between Jack Welch and a Buddhist monk.' In this show, he deconstructs world-class performers from eclectic areas (investing, chess, pro sports, etc . It's arguably not the case in the third century. So I really follow the scholarship of Enriqueta Pons, who is the archaeologist on site there, at this Greek sanctuary that we're talking about in Catalonia, Mas Castellar des Pontos. President and CEO, First Southeast Financial Corp and First Federal Savings and Loan Director, Carolina First Bank and The South Financial Group And even in the New Testament, you'll see wine spiked with myrrh, for example, that's served to Jesus at his crucifixion. If the Dionysian one is psychedelic, does it really make its way into some kind of psychedelic Christianity? The Continuity Hypothesis was put forward by John Bowlby (1953) as a critical effect of attachments in his development of Attachment Theory. But Egypt seems to not really be hugely relevant to the research. In this hypothesis, both widely accepted and widely criticized,11 'American' was synonymous with 'North American'. We have other textual evidence. But it survives. The mysteries of Dionysus, a bit weirder, a bit more off the grid. So welcome to the fourth event in our yearlong series on psychedelics and the future of religion, co-sponsored by the Esalen Institute, the Riverstyx Foundation, and the Chacruna Institute for Psychedelic Plant Medicines. And so in some of these psychedelic trials, under the right conditions, I do see genuine religious experiences. Thank you, sir. Find ratings and reviews for the newest movie and TV shows. I mean, what-- my big question is, what can we say about the Eucharist-- and maybe it's just my weird lens, but what can we say about it definitively in the absence of the archaeochemstry or the archaeobotany? Was there any similarity from that potion to what was drunk at Eleusis? That's all just fancy wordplay. There have been really dramatic studies from Hopkins and NYU about the ability of psilocybin at the end of life to curb things like depression, anxiety, and end of life distress. Here's your Western Eleusis. You won't find it in many places other than that. CHARLES STANG: OK. And that's a question equally for ancient historians and for contemporary seekers and/or good Catholics. There are others claiming that there's drugs everywhere. Oh, I hope I haven't offended you, Brian. Now, Brian managed to write this book while holding down a full time practice in international law based in Washington DC. I wish that an ancient pharmacy had been preserved by Mount Vesuvius somewhere near Alexandria or even in upper Egypt or in Antioch or parts of Turkey. So the big question is, what kind of drug was this, if it was a drug? I'm currently reading The Immortality Key by Brian Muraresku and find this 2nd/3rd/4th century AD time period very interesting, particularly with regards to the adoptions of pagan rituals and practices by early Christianity. I just sense a great deal of structure and thoughtfulness going into this experience. BRIAN MURARESKU: I don't-- I don't claim too heavily. Not because it's not there, because it hasn't been tested. If you look at Dioscorides, for example, his Materia Medica, that's written in the first century AD around the same time that the Gospels themselves are being written. Thank you. Now, I've had experiences outside the Eucharist that resonate with me. Like in a retreat pilgrimage type center, or maybe within palliative care. We don't have to look very hard to find that. Do you think that by calling the Eucharist a placebo that you're likely to persuade them? Because every time I think about ancient wine, I am now immediately thinking about wine that is spiked. He co-writes that with Gordon Wasson and Albert Hofmann, who famously-- there it is, the three authors. But maybe you could just say something about this community in Catalonia. I'm skeptical, Dr. Stang. The idea of the truth shall set you free, right, [SPEAKING GREEK], in 8:32. But I don't understand how that provides any significant link to paleo-Christian practice. He's the god of wine. And even Burkert, I think, calls it the most famous of the mystery rituals. So I have my concerns about what's about to happen in Oregon and the regulation of psilocybin for therapeutic purposes. So I was obsessed with this stuff from the moment I picked up an article in The Economist called the God Pill back in 2007. But with what were they mixed, and to what effect? Now, it's just an early indication and there's more testing to be done. I wish the church fathers were better botanists and would rail against the specific pharmacopeia. #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Lessons from Scholar Karen Armstrong, and Much More from The Tim Ferriss Show on Podchaser, aired Wednesday, 28th December 2022.